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Post by Administrator on Dec 28, 2009 13:48:36 GMT 2
....................(such as shortcutting in chicanes for example) I just lol'ed at that ... we all know what your saying there. ;D Really ? I doubt you know... and I don't know what's so funny about it Actually how to treat shortcutting is something that has been discussed since there is online sim racing. And I don't claim to have found the golden way to it. In 2004 we had a ISCH2 race at Hockenheim that endet with half the drivers turning out from the community because of the way shortcutting was penalized then by the series' maintainer. There was a hot discussion on the forum, that led to some track updates where pen traps where moved THAT close to the curbs that some tracks were considered to be no fun at all anymore - and these tracks were hardly ever run afterwards That's why I think that shortcutting is something that SHOULD be discussed - and from those that don't agree to penalizing it too. Unfortunately up to now those that didn't agree in pm's have not taken part in the public discussion. Though IMO their point of view is as valid in an open discussion as any There's tracks/mods that "allow" shortcutting. Means, there's no negative effect from shortcutting. Your car doesn't slip or go airborne because of it. It does't even slow down. Some point in previous discussions was, that at these places even in real life racing drivers DO shortcut and don't get penalized - so it's basically the track layout that makes shortcutting shortcutting - or just running a more optimal line In FR2K Mexico race, where the track allowed massive shortcutting, Chris was in the same dilemma we had been at previous FOX races. A lot of drivers had been shortcutting, but some only occasionally, some almost each lap. The idea of drawing a line at a certain shortcutting frequency was first brung up by Chris then, and so far IMO it was the best idea how to handle that problem that came to my notice in last 6 years But that's just MY opinion. Doesn't mean this necessarily is indeed the best way how to handle shortcutting. But to find a better way, its necessary to get different opinions on that matter. And at best controversal opinions too
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alang
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by alang on Dec 28, 2009 16:25:23 GMT 2
In my opinion shortcutting is shortcutting when you choose a line that was not intended by the track builder, no matter if you get damage or not. Ok in real life there are tracks you can shortcut or choose a line that gives you some advantage but to my knowledge these are things that are being talked in driver briefings in real life and that are clearly accepted by the officials.
So in order to prevent people being angry from being penalized due to shortcutting, the matter must be discussed before every race and there must be a clear decision before the race what is allowed and what not. Of course there are tracks it's hardly worth discussing it as there virtually are no possibilities to shortcut, but othere races like the 2 last ones are (though I must admit I never would have thought that there could be shortcutting at Fernbay).
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Post by DaveO on Dec 28, 2009 18:44:22 GMT 2
So in order to prevent people being angry from being penalized due to shortcutting, the matter must be discussed before every race and there must be a clear decision before the race what is allowed and what not. Not a bad idea of maybe having more open discussions on things and what to expect at certain tracks before race day.. We also do have this rule in effect, if you check the rules page. Race lines Drivers are required to keep at least 2 wheels on the race track at all times. Consistent abuse may result in disqualification and no scoring for that race. Drivers who accidental shortcutted a corner must not gain positions on drivers who properly made the corner, and must slow and wait to pull behind any cars that they may have passed while off the racetrack.
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alang
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by alang on Dec 28, 2009 19:09:30 GMT 2
Not a bad idea of maybe having more open discussions on things and what to expect at certain tracks before race day.. We also do have this rule in effect, if you check the rules page. Race lines Drivers are required to keep at least 2 wheels on the race track at all times. Consistent abuse may result in disqualification and no scoring for that race. Drivers who accidental shortcutted a corner must not gain positions on drivers who properly made the corner, and must slow and wait to pull behind any cars that they may have passed while off the racetrack. Yes right, and that is also the reason I can t understand how some people made it to shortcut in Fernbay. Still there may be tracks in our small LFS world where things may not be so clear. Classic one is the Kyoto Long chicane where I have seen so much discussions already in my "career". I am sure there are some more.
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Post by DaveO on Dec 28, 2009 21:47:14 GMT 2
Not a bad idea of maybe having more open discussions on things and what to expect at certain tracks before race day.. We also do have this rule in effect, if you check the rules page. Race lines Drivers are required to keep at least 2 wheels on the race track at all times. Consistent abuse may result in disqualification and no scoring for that race. Drivers who accidental shortcutted a corner must not gain positions on drivers who properly made the corner, and must slow and wait to pull behind any cars that they may have passed while off the racetrack. Yes right, and that is also the reason I can t understand how some people made it to shortcut in Fernbay. Still there may be tracks in our small LFS world where things may not be so clear. Classic one is the Kyoto Long chicane where I have seen so much discussions already in my "career". I am sure there are some more. The shortcutting at Fernbay happened in the final S.. When all 4 tires were on the grass. Yep you are correct Kyoto Long is another big one that I've heard about big time also..
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Post by turtlewise06 on Dec 29, 2009 7:33:29 GMT 2
The race admins here are well known as being Straight Up , as far as Im concerned .
You have always treated everyone the same . "with respect " . And as far as race incidents penalties the way you have them is Great If someone dosnt like the rules DONT BREAK THEM . OR GET CAUGHT.
Great Job Speedsims Admins and Members
AND HAPPY NEW YEAR
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yann
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by yann on Jan 9, 2010 17:33:41 GMT 2
Well, I cannot say I've read the whole thread very carefully, but I just wanted to say that even though I'm a civilised person who gives a big importance at the rules(and I do think I quite know my business, as I've been an admin in several other leagues in the past), I do think that you've often been harsh on your previous decisions.
I really don't see a need for the adminning team to go through the replays and investigate incidents by themselves. We all are mature guys, and we know when we've been hit unfairly or not, and therefore, we do know when there's a need to use the protest form or not. The thing is, incidents can happen, and sometimes you cannot do anything about that. 80% of the time, when I get hit, I just forgive the other guy, as this is motorracing, and sometimes you fail, and then you just have to apologise and do your best to not repeat that mistake next time. Putting even more oil on the fire is often not the best solution, as it usually spoil a bit the atmosphere of the league, and this is why I think there's no need to penalise for every single incident, but rather investigate extreme cases only.
Concerning cutting, what I have to say is, we all know that this ky3 chicane is a very controversial point in LFS(at least those who mainly plays LFS know that), and therefore I think there should've been a customised layout to prevent from cutting there. It is very easy to do that on LFS, so I can't see why you don't do that.
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Post by DaveO on Jan 9, 2010 19:36:50 GMT 2
Well, I cannot say I've read the whole thread very carefully, but I just wanted to say that even though I'm a civilised person who gives a big importance at the rules(and I do think I quite know my business, as I've been an admin in several other leagues in the past), I do think that you've often been harsh on your previous decisions. I really don't see a need for the adminning team to go through the replays and investigate incidents by themselves. We all are mature guys, and we know when we've been hit unfairly or not, and therefore, we do know when there's a need to use the protest form or not. The thing is, incidents can happen, and sometimes you cannot do anything about that. 80% of the time, when I get hit, I just forgive the other guy, as this is motorracing, and sometimes you fail, and then you just have to apologise and do your best to not repeat that mistake next time. Putting even more oil on the fire is often not the best solution, as it usually spoil a bit the atmosphere of the league, and this is why I think there's no need to penalise for every single incident, but rather investigate extreme cases only. Concerning cutting, what I have to say is, we all know that this ky3 chicane is a very controversial point in LFS(at least those who mainly plays LFS know that), and therefore I think there should've been a customised layout to prevent from cutting there. It is very easy to do that on LFS, so I can't see why you don't do that. Well if you had read most of the thread, it seems most of the drivers, do appreciate us taking the time to review the replays, and followup with investigating the incidents. Yep KY3 in LFS is very controversial point in LFS. Concerning cutting at KY3, not sure if you checked the replay or not. But the person who was cutting in the last S turn had 4 WHEELS on the grass there several times.. If you checked the replay you won't see other drivers doing that. IMHO getting a brand new PB record that way is kinda like cheating.. Yes, creating a customized track layout in LFS is VERY easy to do. ;D But in this case we both felt we didn't need to do that for this race.
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Post by Administrator on Jan 9, 2010 21:24:02 GMT 2
... I do think that you've often been harsh on your previous decisions. Some examples ? I really don't see a need for the adminning team to go through the replays and investigate incidents by themselves. We all are mature guys uhm... now actually you're wrong on that point ;D We're not all mature; you'd be surprised to find out there's some youngsters participating. And even if some people are by age mature, not all post-puperty folks could be called mature by behavior, especially not with brains drowned in adrenaline - which unfortunatly is a popular state of mind in racing, especially in/after an incident and we know when we've been hit unfairly or not In previous races/series we've got complaints from people about having been "deliberately" hit by numbers... and none of these complaints did stand the investigation. Some even turned out to have been the protester's fault and therefore, we do know when there's a need to use the protest form or not. Which means your point is only to investigate in case of a complaint ? We have done so in the past, but it turned out that there almost never was any complaints, even at rightout rude hittings. Instead, people started bitching at each other and looking for "revenge" in next race Your suggestion implies that people would make use of being able to protest. But so far as experience tells, they rather don't. I suspect they don't complain because of not wanting to look like some snitch, looking like making it a personal matter and rather bear a grudge and become biased towards each Which is what we want to avoid and which is why we investigate into each incident, thus taking it away from becoming a personal conflict between opponents and turning it into a conflict with rules instead. Which has worked insofar yet as since then no drivers tried to go for each others, no matter what incident they have been involved at earlier occurences The thing is, incidents can happen, and sometimes you cannot do anything about that. Uhm... yes... and no Sure incidents can happen - and you'll notice that such incidents have never been penalized. They're called race accidents and have been judged this because nobody was to blame to have caused that accidents by violating rules - and those rules are pretty basic 80% of the time, when I get hit, I just forgive the other guy, as this is motorracing, and sometimes you fail, and then you just have to apologise and do your best to not repeat that mistake next time. Would you forgive the same guy again when he hits you in next race again - and again and again ? Btw... in case nobody suffered any notable disadvantage, the one who had caused this incident won't penalized here too. So by for example giving back the advantage you have gained by kicking your opponent offtrack, there would be no penalizing. We mostly make sure the offender doesn't profit from having caused an incident - and that he gets the lesson in case his action did show some lack of a) skill/practice or b) modesty Putting even more oil on the fire is often not the best solution, as it usually spoil a bit the atmosphere of the league, and this is why I think there's no need to penalise for every single incident, but rather investigate extreme cases only. As mentioned, we don't penalize each incident, only those that were caused by violating basic rules and where there was a victim suffering disadvantage btw.. by what measure would your rate an incident an "extreme case" ? IMO maintaining that way would open up endless discussions about why some incident was penalized and another not - and that discussion would even be justified Concerning cutting, what I have to say is, we all know that this ky3 chicane is a very controversial point in LFS(at least those who mainly plays LFS know that), and therefore I think there should've been a customised layout to prevent from cutting there. It is very easy to do that on LFS, so I can't see why you don't do that. Good point Actually something to take into cnsideration next time. But personally I'm not that deep into LFS that I could tell for each layout where people would "automatically" start shortcutting. We'd need some consultant way more experienced with running races in LFS to figure out at what layouts/places to check out
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yann
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by yann on Jan 10, 2010 1:48:19 GMT 2
Sorry, but 1) I can't think of any special incident, and 2) I think that arguing about an incident that was already investigated would be rather counter productive Being one of these "youngsters", I could not say that I'm surprised to learn that there are some racing amons us, in fact ;D From my own experience, I'd say that age isn't a very important factor in league racing... I mean that, league racing requires a minimum of preparation, so you have to be rather commited just to sign-up, turn-up, etc. It's not like a "plug'n'play" server, which remains open all the time. This prevents the less mature kids/teenagers from messing up there, simply because they will only get interrested in league racing once they take the sim seriously enough. On the contrary, I've seen adults as well as teenagers loosing their calm in LFS, as well as I've seen 11-12 years old kids acting fairly okay. Sure - I placed that "sometimes" to refer to racing incidents Yea - I've met that problem in some other league I've been adminning in. People were generally complaining about the bad standards, but only a few of them were actually raising reports, even though if they had the opportunity to send them via PM. Finally, we carried on with that system, but we eventually decided to mention in the rules that we reserved the rights to investigate incidents by ourselves if we felt like an incident was too important to be ignored(ie : general reckless behaviour, ignoring blue flags), and it worked out eventually, as we had half decent standards in the end. No - And that is why I've typed "80%" and not "100%" Good - Good way of thinking, I like that Hmm... Intentional wrecking, ignoring racing flags... This kind of things. That is right, unfortunately - But at some point, the competitors have to understand that they have to give a minimal respect to the admin and respect their decision, even if they disagree with some. Without them, there wouldn't be anything, after all ;D
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humty
Administrator
The only true wishdom is knowing you know nothing
Posts: 538
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Post by humty on Jan 10, 2010 2:03:26 GMT 2
In my opinion shortcutting is shortcutting when you choose a line that was not intended by the track builder The line intended by the track builder is a line where you keep all 4 wheels on the tarmac. In all the series I have raced, there have been rules explaining that you need to have at least 2 wheels on the tarmac (which allows you to take turns with 2 wheels on the inside of the curbs) Now IMHO if a turn is taken with 2 wheels on the inside of the curbs, that is shortcutting. If the inside wheels are on the curbs, that in my eyes isn't shortcutting. Chris
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Post by ksheppard on Jan 10, 2010 3:41:56 GMT 2
I both agree and disagree with Chris...I really believe the intent in track design (sim and real) is that 2 wheels remain on the tarmac - the black part. The curbs are for the other 2 wheels, & not all 4.
Having said that, I'm a big boy & I understand the statment of the rules and I can adjust my driving to either a)drive the way I believe the lines are intended to be taken or b)drive the lines slightly wider and stay within the agreed upon rules of the series. The point is that the rules might be different for a differently admin'ed series and you'd better read and understand the rules set that are laid out.
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Post by Administrator on Jan 10, 2010 10:43:36 GMT 2
Now IMHO if a turn is taken with 2 wheels on the inside of the curbs, that is shortcutting. If the inside wheels are on the curbs, that in my eyes isn't shortcutting. yes and no On some tracks at some places you'll see a rumble strip on the ouside of the curbs. That has been placed there by some specific purpose... obviously the track maker (in real life) had adjusted to the way the drivers made use of the track, which obviously was outside curbs that place. IMO we shouldn't be more orthodox on that matter as folks are in real life In case it turns out that everybody or almost everybody uses a line that carries him somewhat off the intended use of the track, that could be considered some kind of poll/vote. At best, the race admins take notice BEFORE the race and make a statement how to proceed (if that line is considered to be ok or not). In a less perfect case, this will only be noticed in the race Now actually in the cases we had in previous races we adjusted the "ok" line at KY3 for example to "stay on the green stuff with at least 2 wheels", as almost everybody cut in there. If we had used the rules in an orthodox way, everybody would have had to be penalized, which would not have made any sense - and which wouldn't have been fair too. As only a small minority had thrown all caution overboard and entirely given up to follow the track line, but simply run straight - which IMO hardly could be justified simply by "it was possible". It's one matter to extend the allowed line, but quite another not to care at all about the track line and frankly shortcut
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triz
Administrator
McLaren Fan
Posts: 500
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Post by triz on Jan 10, 2010 18:30:34 GMT 2
Well, the rules are quite clear. they apply to everybody evenly. the way the admins look at the replays is fair and square. Also the handing out of penalties is fair. I think to review the replays is not a waste of time at all. It helps keeping people in line. If one gets away with 'cutting corners' or taking other people out in a race once. He might do it again, and others will do it too. Penalties are not going to rule out unfair conduct 100% but it greatly helps in keeping the percentage up high To me, it has no use to even have this discussion since from the start that I race at SpeedSims i know what the deal is. Replays are reviewed and incidents/accidents are taken care off. All in all to make sure the quality of the racing is high. What i noticed before in other leagues is sometimes the fastest drivers take little to no notice of the slower drivers. Racing in a manner like pushing the slower guys off. The slower guys arent protected by rules then at all. Which makes it less enjoyable for them. With SpeedSims i know that even the fastest guys dont get away with unfair conduct cheers, Triz
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Post by ksheppard on Jan 10, 2010 23:35:20 GMT 2
+1
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