Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2011 20:26:34 GMT 2
how many caught the interview during the USA televised portion of the 2011 LEMANS 24 HR race of the NASCAR driver who was driving there for the 1st time? in this interveiw he mentioned the
feeling of the car when the prototypes went by. he specifically made note of the ground effects of the prototypes downforce causing disturbance to his car.
i personally wondered about this from the 1st online race i drove in which was the WGTC. i once jokingly enquired of CRASH what his rear wing setting was for his group c car. i was amazed when
he said it was set to max & that he generally races everywhere with max rear wing. i continued to wonder.
my point here, if u dont see the syntax of the ground effect, and i
really dont want to explain the little syntax i've deciphered, yet any how, is can this be happening in the game as well. i sure the
answer is yes.
when i raced and was enveloped by 2 lapping cars, 1 ahead & 1
behind, i had no control over the car. i couldnt keep up with the
1 ahead & couldnt outbrake the 1 behind & ended up spinning out. that was a result of my car lacking sufficient ground effects.
gear speed is nulled & voided when it comes to navigating a turn,
it is more important to have strong ground effects.
another issue of ground effects is will a car being passed on a
straight away in the game loose it grip due to the passing cars
ground effect? i'll gamble & say yes again. i feel this has happened to me more times than i care to say.
i make mention of this because as i said it was a curious topic that
a professional driver commented on & i could relate to it & devise
a tactic that might in making my driving more enjoyable. many times in offline practice i can get my car down to an average lap time of with in 2 sec maybe 3 sec, 4 sec usually always of the lead
average lap. when the online race takes place my car is as weak
as feather in a tornado. now i'm coming to grips why.
so i can only practice & try to improve how i apply my ground effects.
i way short on time at zolder. but as we continue to race i expect
to decipher much more ground effect syntax.
thank u crash for your direction. good luck to all always. unless i'm in front of u(joking :{
front of you
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humty
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Post by humty on Jun 24, 2011 22:23:49 GMT 2
when i raced and was enveloped by 2 lapping cars, 1 ahead & 1 behind, i had no control over the car. i couldnt keep up with the 1 ahead & couldnt outbrake the 1 behind & ended up spinning out. that was a result of my car lacking sufficient ground effects. gear speed is nulled & voided when it comes to navigating a turn, it is more important to have strong ground effects. Not being able to keep up with the one in front could be caused by the fact that he maybe runs with lesser downforce. Not being able to keep up with Crash is something we all experience here, he's just a natural talent running with max downforce, and still being able to set the fastest laptimes. As for the outbraking and spinning part, if you have your "Brake Bias" too high (more brake force on front wheels) you lock the front wheels and aren't able to turn for the apex you're aiming for. If it's too low (more brake force on the rear wheels) you'll lock the rear wheels and the car can start to break away. another issue of ground effects is will a car being passed on a straight away in the game loose it grip due to the passing cars ground effect? i'll gamble & say yes again. i feel this has happened to me more times than i care to say. To be honest I never experienced the effect that a passing car affects my downforce, or make the car twitchy, in the 6 years I've been running online races. i make mention of this because as i said it was a curious topic that a professional driver commented on & i could relate to it & devise a tactic that might in making my driving more enjoyable. many times in offline practice i can get my car down to an average lap time of with in 2 sec maybe 3 sec, 4 sec usually always of the lead average lap. when the online race takes place my car is as weak as feather in a tornado. now i'm coming to grips why. so i can only practice & try to improve how i apply my ground effects. i way short on time at zolder. but as we continue to race i expect to decipher much more ground effect syntax. This could be caused by the fact that you'll possibly have the "Realisme" setting at "Expert" in the setup when you're practising offline. The Speedsims server is set to "Hardcore" mode, and those two settings react very different from each other. When you launch the mod, select "Single", pick your car, select the track, and then at the screen where you have "Practise, Qualify, Race, Garage and Setup", go to the "Setup" screen and check if "Realisme" is set to "Hardcore" Setting it to that ensure's that you'll be practising offline under the same conditions as when you're running in a online race. If you can't change the setting to "Hardcore" you'll have to exit Heat, go with your "Explorer" to C:\Program Files\Hasbro Interactive\Nascar Heat\ Open the modfolder you were running in and look for a file called "Options.cfg" Open that file with notepad and look for the following line: hardcore_enabled yes If that is set to "no" change it to "yes" Save the file and try again. |
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Post by ucrdoh on Jun 28, 2011 2:50:34 GMT 2
while the conditions may be the same, as long as they are selecting hardcore, sometimes being online can make the car a lil looser, which could be good or bad depending on what you want. At least i've noticed that in my experience.
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triz
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Post by triz on Jun 28, 2011 3:12:55 GMT 2
I wonder if the HEAT engine is that advanced to simulate ground effect real time...
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Post by DaveO on Jun 28, 2011 3:42:37 GMT 2
I wonder if the HEAT engine is that advanced to simulate ground effect real time... You can feel some cause and effects when in a slip stream (Draft) Also in LFS, in a draft your car tends to get tighter. |
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triz
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Post by triz on Jun 28, 2011 4:26:02 GMT 2
I wonder if the HEAT engine is that advanced to simulate ground effect real time... You can feel some cause and effects when in a slip stream (Draft) Also in LFS, in a draft your car tends to get tighter. But slipstream is not ground effect... What I think is that modeling the slipstream advantage is easier then how ground effect works. Seems that the car goes faster when your within a certain distance from the car in front of you and a loss of certain amount of 'downforce'. As for ground effect, that basically has to do with the design of the floor of the car... I wonder how much that affects the airflow over other cars... Since the effect is very local underneath the car. And how would that be modeled in an simulator like HEAT or LFS or whatever |
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Post by DaveO on Jun 28, 2011 4:32:19 GMT 2
You can feel some cause and effects when in a slip stream (Draft) Also in LFS, in a draft your car tends to get tighter. But slipstream is not ground effect.. True it's not, but that's what I feel when racing..  Ground effects definition. is a phenomenon of aerodynamics where the flow of air around part of an aircraft or a racing car is interrupted by the ground. |
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triz
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Post by triz on Jun 28, 2011 6:03:55 GMT 2
But slipstream is not ground effect.. True it's not, but that's what I feel when racing.. Ground effects definition. is a phenomenon of aerodynamics where the flow of air around part of an aircraft or a racing car is interrupted by the ground. Only ground effect for aircraft and cars is not the same. In fact its the goal is inverse of eachother. Ground effect in cars is used to create 'downforce' as for aircraft it's creating 'lift'. But yes... the ground is disturbing the airflow. |
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Post by DaveO on Jun 28, 2011 6:21:07 GMT 2
True it's not, but that's what I feel when racing.. Ground effects definition. is a phenomenon of aerodynamics where the flow of air around part of an aircraft or a racing car is interrupted by the ground. Only ground effect for aircraft and cars is not the same. In fact its the goal is inverse of eachother. Ground effect in cars is used to create 'downforce' as for aircraft it's creating 'lift'. But yes... the ground is disturbing the airflow. hehehe this is good stuff! (You wouldn't believe what I'm doing right at this moment.) Anyways for aircrafts may be affected by a number of ground effects, or aerodynamic effects due to a flying body's proximity to the ground. Race car aerodynamic effects used in car design, which has been exploited to create down force, particularly in racing cars. This has been the successor to the earlier dominant aerodynamic theory of streamlining Here's something I bet you didn't know, earlier years, in sports cars more importantly in the 70's era they got there down force from the lift (for example 71 Ferrari 512M) Those car didn't have much down force back then. Triz, I've enjoyed this immensely, now I wish I could keep my eye's open to banter more with you! Anyways time for me to call it a day. See you soon! |
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Post by Cholerix on Jun 28, 2011 15:45:35 GMT 2
I wonder if the HEAT engine is that advanced to simulate ground effect real time... No, and neither would any other sim out there. The simple reason is that the car bottom shape is simply graphics, though 3D. But it has no impact on physics, which are defined elsewhere, such as in a physics definition file. To make the car shape have any kind of physical effects, you'd need to be able to define that shape in the physics definition file. At least on every game engine that I'm aware of. The car shape simply doesn't matter. You can have cars that look like bricks and run them with GroupC physics. Apart from graphics there would be no difference Ground effect however, is caused by a car's bottom shape. You cannot simply define downforce, because even if you'd be able to position that downforce - for ground effect you'd have to define downwforce for a multitude of places on the car's bottom. And there's no game engine out there where you can. Heat only has front/rear df for the car body + front/rear df for wing/spoiler A VERY advanced physics engine could possibly compute aerodynamics from the car 3D mesh. But that would make modelers need to pay attention on every single poligon when making a car. Actually you'd need knowledge and resources that game companies don't have - and that modelers even have much less |
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triz
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Post by triz on Jun 28, 2011 16:48:07 GMT 2
I wonder if the HEAT engine is that advanced to simulate ground effect real time... No, and neither would any other sim out there. The simple reason is that the car bottom shape is simply graphics, though 3D. But it has no impact on physics, which are defined elsewhere, such as in a physics definition file. To make the car shape have any kind of physical effects, you'd need to be able to define that shape in the physics definition file. At least on every game engine that I'm aware of. The car shape simply doesn't matter. You can have cars that look like bricks and run them with GroupC physics. Apart from graphics there would be no difference Ground effect however, is caused by a car's bottom shape. You cannot simply define downforce, because even if you'd be able to position that downforce - for ground effect you'd have to define downwforce for a multitude of places on the car's bottom. And there's no game engine out there where you can. Heat only has front/rear df for the car body + front/rear df for wing/spoiler A VERY advanced physics engine could possibly compute aerodynamics from the car 3D mesh. But that would make modelers need to pay attention on every single poligon when making a car. Actually you'd need knowledge and resources that game companies don't have - and that modelers even have much less And it would take up a big amount of processor time just to calculate the localized airflows, vortex generation etc. Like I said as well ground effect is more difficult to model then from 2 specific well definable places (wings) that's y I think ground effect is not implemented in HEAT since its suh a difficult parameter to define. What's interesting to know that when they started to implement ground effect in real racing back in the 70's they weren't even sure themselves how it worked and what to do to get it better. Only very few aerodynamicists knew what was truly happening. Anyway as I said I doubt HEAT or any other sum out there has a real parameter for ground effect implementation. Unless a modder out there can tell us its defined in q physics file Cheers, Triz |
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Post by rpjones on Nov 29, 2011 17:20:07 GMT 2
Heat and the other car physics all make some very great simplifying assumptions about aerodynamics. but still work out pretty well. Ground effects (undercar) shape create a suction pulling the car down toward the ground. the most critical control for this is how close the car bottom is to the ground . the efficiency of the ground to body is controlled by the suspension/tires mostly and Heat does not "worry" about this. raising ride height has almost no effect on downforce total. However Heat is Smart enough to notice if your wings or body get to be turned up or backward in the air stream you will enter the takeoff zone. So there must be some attention paid to this effect, however simplified.
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Post by DaveO on Nov 29, 2011 17:29:30 GMT 2
Heat and the other car physics all make some very great simplifying assumptions about aerodynamics. but still work out pretty well. Ground effects (undercar) shape create a suction pulling the car down toward the ground. the most critical control for this is how close the car bottom is to the ground . the efficiency of the ground to body is controlled by the suspension/tires mostly and Heat does not "worry" about this. raising ride height has almost no effect on downforce total. However Heat is Smart enough to notice if your wings or body get to be turned up or backward in the air stream you will enter the takeoff zone. So there must be some attention paid to this effect, however simplified. And that's coming from one of our local physics expert! Who has been a saint and taught me so much about physics the last several months.. Being patient and answering all my questions. He's been our main physics guru for our up and coming SCP mod.  He's taught me A-Z about this stuff, and man is he GOOD! Ron, damn glad to see you back posting and on the track with us once again. Welcome back buddy!! ;D |
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Post by spike on Nov 29, 2011 18:23:43 GMT 2
However Heat is Smart enough to notice if your wings or body get to be turned up or backward in the air stream you will enter the takeoff zone. As I have found out many times ;D  I don't think there's one single mod where I have kept a car grounded ;D |
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Open Wheel Action Season 3 Overall and Road Course Champion! 13 Wins, 10 Poles, and 398 laps led!
He's taught me A-Z about this stuff, and man is he GOOD! Ron, damn glad to see you back posting and on the track with us once again. Welcome back buddy!! ;D
